Friday, September 21, 2007

Standing For Something

I've heard that if you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.  This really rings true right now in the TEAM vs. Quixtar situation.  For the first time the big "Q" is not only battling in court, they are battling in cyberspace.  Now, they have had internet critics for years, but this is a totally different battle.  But this current battle is not with a disgruntled ex-IBO, it's with an entire TEAM that makes up 40% or so of their North American volume and could very well change the entire way they do business in North America.  The Quixtar PR machine is spinning like crazy and if you are not careful, and if you don't stand for something, it might be very easy to fall for their corporate spin.  Standing for the TEAM cause or fall for the "Q" spin.  You decide.  Judging from all the rumor, hearsay, and opinion flying around the internet, their are a lot of people standing for the TEAM cause.

Stay true to the cause and stay focused on the million people strong!    


Anonymous said...

You are delusional.

TEAM doesn't even come close to 40% of Quixtar volume. Didn't you read the BF's affidavit? Chris Brady's diamond club report (why it was in that doc I have no idea)showed his average active IBO's PV was about half of other diamonds' average active IBO. You guys may have a lot of people signed up, but you guys aren't generating the PV/dollars you think you are...except for maybe system money for Orrin and Chris.

You forget one other group out there in cyberspace...the people who have ALWAYS been critical of Quixtar and Amway and always knew what you guys (including TEAM) were doing was promoting an illegal product pyramid. I guess time and TEAM is proving the critics right.

Most critics hope TEAM and Quixtar devour each other enough that they both die horribly in the legal system (TEAM through expensive pyric battles in court and Quixtar through government regulation). When all is said and done, the only winners will be the critics who told all you lemmings the truth, but you wouldn't listen.

Have you noticed that all the naysayers that posted on the freetheibo forum have gone...they were booted because they didn't toe the TEAM line. It is easy to think things are going your way when opposing views and ideas are forbidden. For a bunch of free-enterprise thinking people, that's a very communist-type approach to dealing with differing ideas.

Tom Morris said...

Remember that Chris Brady is just one team of Orrin's. He has at least eight other teams. And then there are the Diamonds who have tied into team. In the town I live in, we didn't have Opens nor BDSs, but we have teams representing at least four different Diamonds who have tied into Team that were not under Chris nor Orrin in Quixtar.

With all of the Diamonds that have tied into Team, I believe that 40% of North American volume sounds pretty reasonable.

Anonymous said...

I dunno ... does 700,000 IBO's sound like at least 40% of Quixtar's business?

makingadifference said...

Just a little clarification. Tom Morris you are right on. When Q said that Team was maybe 15% of the volume that does not include Florence, Haugen, Newton, Goetshel and others. Also, the statement about Chris Bradys Team is misleading. Two things to know are that the low pv rate per IBO had a lot to do with the speed at which his organization was growing, although it is true that TEAM in general was weak in this area until dot1/step. After that program, we've been in the upper 20%. By the way, "anonymous" knows this. Nice to hear from you Tex, Piet Strydom, jthompson, or girl power. And by the way all those booted on the freetheibo blog were booted because of slanderous, vulgar, and/or defaming remarks. No one has been booted for simply disagreeing with TEAM. Now look over your shoulder, and ask the attorneys how to respond to the 3.5% of retail question, or why Q is upset about an organization having developed a tools bus. with total transparency and integrity.

Anonymous said...

I'm sure Orrin's diamond club report read exactly the same as the one Chris had. Aren't you guys the ones who preach discretion is the enemy of duplication? If all you guys are duplicating Orrin, then his average PV per active IBO sucks, too. I'll grant you that dot1/step has helped your average PV. I've heard that TEAM used to have an average PV per active IBO in the high teens. You guys have doubled that, but you're still lagging way behind the other groups.

The groups TEAM has added are all negligable. Florence and Haugen have been going backwards for over a decade. Team hasn't added any large groups like BWW (Britt and Miller), Jim Crowe's organization, Larry Winter's organization, Jim Dornan's organization, Tim Foley's organization, WWDB (Ron P.'s group), or very many other Yager diamonds. I count about 7 other major organizations outside of TEAM, and you are trying to say that you guys account for 40% of Quixtar volume? Dream on.

Do you realize that when TEAM diamonds have only half the average PV per active IBO as other diamonds that TEAM is really bringing the average down? If TEAM accounted for 40% of the Quixtar volume, then why is the average PV so much higher in other groups? Shouldn't they be much closer to average if you guys really are 40% of the Q volume?

Here's another clue for you. The 3.5% retail issue is more about your "leaders" knowing nothing about retailing products and teaching retailing even less. If TEAM "leaders" would quit teaching self-consumption only, then the average might be higher.

I know it is possible to retail over 1000 PV in a month because I've done it. Heck, my best month was 3000PV, and it was all retail.

Maybe Q is upset about the tools business because that total transparency makes it very clear that it is also totally illegal. The Team tool business is suffering from the same problem Q many people buy TEAM tools who aren't trying to participate in the profits? In other words, how much of tool business is retailed to people OUTSIDE of TEAM? TEAM's tool business is another illegal product pyramid. That's some great integrity your leaders have.

Btw, makingadifference, I'm not any of the people...I'm yet another detractor of both TEAM and Amway. We are trying to help you people wake up and realize what you are doing.

scott said...

I guess what people have said about the handful of negative Internet critics of Quixtar being angry, mean-spirited little losers is true. You would think you would be glad to see so many of us waking up to the true fraud Quixtar has foisted on us for all these years. Problem is, we believed Quixtar's spin. Our leaders, apparently, didn't. They've been pushing back for the whole time they've been on the board. But you guys keep shooting at both sides. Just can't seem to believe that our leaders were trying to fix things. Then they risked everything to try to get away and not leave their family and friends trapped behind them. We should be allies, but instead, you guys are so negative and so full of "I told you so" that you are falling right into the Billionaire's hands. If they can keep us shooting at each other, they will probably be able to add to their extensive air force, laughing all the way to the bank.

Anonymous said...

Bravo! Scott. Bravo! If you added up all the wealth of Dexter yager, Bill Britt, Brad Duncan, Ron Puryear, and all the others, it wouldn't even come up to a small percentage of what the DeVos and VanAndels have. Why they keep getting to hide behind all the diamonds, I don't know.

Anonymous said...

In your quest to make the DeVoss and Van Andels the bad guys, you are forgetting one thing.

YOU helped get them there!

YOU ignored the critics who have been telling the truth online about this company for YEARS!

YOU helped recruit people to buy their overpriced crap!

YOU are part of the problem!

Take some responsibility for what you guys (and your leaders) did!

The reason they are billionaires is because they convinced some millionaires and would-be millionaires to go out and sell their junk for them. You mlm junkies (ibos) and pushers (diamonds) are now getting mad at the drug lords (Amway) sitting at home raking in the dough? Your whining makes me sick.

You guys trying to overcome your addiction (heroin/Amway) is admirable until we start hearing about how you will replace it with a new addiction (meth/TEAM). WAKE UP!

AEM said...

On the retial issue, what about the learning lab? Quixtar tried (and failed) to prove you could train IBO's to effectively retail products. Furthermore, if product pricing is a non-issue then why is Amway dropping prices in the UK? Why did Doug Devos say Quixtar is a internal consumption business model, not a retial model? On the PV per IBO issue, Team grows incredibly fast, they've had months with over 1,000 new people. The last major function I went to had close to that number in the overflow room. Do the math on that, PV per IBO will always be low in groups that are exploding numbers wise. On the duplication issue, I'd love to be a EDC with multiple diamond legs (assuming Quixtar is viable). On the integrity issue, Orrin and Chris put themselves on the same pay plan as all other Team affliated IBO's when it comes to tools. Further on the issue of integrity, you know how much money Team leadership passed up because they felt they had to do what is right by those IBO's they represent? Millions, both Chuck and Randy passed up 500k each in bonuses.
That thin on top of your neck isn't a hat rack, you can use it to think, try it out sometime.

aem said...

That thing* on top of your neck isn't a hat rack, you can use it to think, try it out sometime.

Warriors on the field! said...

You must remember that Chris Brady's team size and volume is outside of any Diamonds in his business, of which he has several really big Diamonds.

Anonymous said...

I think you said it better when you said that "thin on the top of your neck". He is definately thin up there.

Never Again said...

From what I can tell, Many of the "15" were qualifying founders diamond for years at the time of their resignation/termination/firing/murder, and they all gave up the $500,000 new bonus. Wouldn't have been too hard to keep quiet and ride it out just to get that money. But they didn't. Hmmmm. Sound like greedy bastards to me. Yup. sacrificing huge bonuses, including their already-earned year-end bonuses is cult-like behavior. Um-hum.

Anonymous said...

Here s some insight. What came first the chicken or the egg. I strongly suggest some out there start re-reading Rich Dad Poor Dad..For some reason, I think alot of people out there still dont understand your not not Self-Employed working for some company. You Own a B tye, business that creates long term Passive Income. And this stupid idea of people making monies on tools. When you went to any higher learning program, people made money of the stuff you purchased,bks and tuition.So get over it.Oh and one more point WHos the Couple to go Diamond the fast, since quixtar was lauched...I think I have a very good idea.....I have the highest respect for the Gentleman the stepped down from the Board..

Anonymous said...

You guys need to get off the drugs. Instead of badmouthing me, who you know nothing about, open your minds up to stuff that has happened before you met beloved Orrin and Chris.

Have you guys heard of someone called Bo Short? Google "Ty Tribble" and talk to him about what Bo Short tried to do a few years ago and how he got stabbed in the back by the corporation.

Unlike your leaders, Bo was never threatened with termination. Where were your "leaders" when Short was trying to work with the company to lower their prices? Where were your "leaders" when Bo started an MLM where nothing was priced over $20? Guess what? Your gang of 15 started badmouthing Bo. It turns out that time is proving Bo right and your leaders wrong, because they are following his footsteps. You may want to ask them, "Why did you badmouth or why didn't follow him when the company backstabbed him?" He did what your guys are doing now (leaving and starting a new company - he didn't have to bring legal action against Q), but he did it 5-6 years earlier. Why are your guys so far behind the curve? Bo's company doesn't exist any more because having low priced products with an mlm model/compensation plan doesn't work.

Former Amway diamonds have done this time and again. They get fed up with the overpriced crap and the crummy compensation and they start their own company or join another. How often does that work? Very seldom. I can't think of a single MLM started by a former Amway diamond that has succeeded. They typically join other MLMs and do well, but none of them have joined an MLM with Wal Mart type prices. If you guys get to that point, we'll see how long it lasts.

Anonymous said...

I can't believe you people still quote Kiyosaki. His stories about a rich Dad are fiction. No one has been able to track down who this rich Dad is. Some of his financial is just down right wrong. Here, check this out

One of the reasons people rail against the tool business is because it is illegal. It is as much if not more of a self-consumption business than Amway. It is everything you guys are saying about Amway. How many people outside of TEAM purchase the tools produced by TEAM? I would bet 3% would be WAY too high of an estimate.

I gotta credit Orrin with this, you people are thoroughly brainwashed. Please, think for yourselves and look at ALL the information before coming to conclusions.

Anonymous said...

Yet another knock on Kiyosaki -

AEM said...

If the best reply you have to my previous post directed to you is to comment on a typo, I think that validates all my points. The reason you may not have heard of any of the other MLM's started by ex IBO's is because MLM's don't advertise, how would you have heard of them if nobody tells you and you don't know where to look? The rumor rich dad never existed is a moot point, I don't care if Kiyosaki made up that character as a way to get his points across, if what he says is valid then who cares who he says it came from? About Bo Short, I've never heard any Diamond badmouth him, he was mentioned once at a FEC but not in a negetive light. You say "I gotta credit Orrin with this, you people are thoroughly brainwashed. Please, think for yourselves and look at ALL the information before coming to conclusions". Do not confuse conviction with brainwashing. I've been encouraged countless times by Team leadership to think for myself, to understand why I believe what I do and accept nothing blindly. So I guess you could say I've been brainwashed into thinking for myself, although that seem like a contridiction in itself. And people don't whine about the tools because making money off them is illegal, they whine because they bought tools and didn't make money with them, so they think they got ripped off. But let me ask you this, what is your plan? Let's pretend for a second following Team leadership is a bad idea, can you provide a better option? Also what exactly makes you qualified to advise others on this issue? Your success record that makes you worthy of listening to is. . . ? You can fill in the blank there. Please excuse any typo's.

AEM said...

Sorry I just realized a few MLM's do advertise, however the vast majority don't. said...

I love the anon's that blog.. either quixsands evil henchmen, too cowardly to admit it, or even more sad, Blogs Because Lonely.. Nothing better to do than blog about something that doesn't even affect them at all! I have secret hidden footage of the Weird Angry Blogger Guy boggin' away!! Check it out!!

Anonymous said...

You never did answer my questions, you just dodged them. So, tell me, why weren't your leaders doing anything about this problem with Quixand 5 years ago?

Asking for an alternative plan is yet another dodge. If you want real advise, look into Dave Ramsey for budgeting/investing help or Jim Cramer for serious investing help. It doesn't take a genius to have 100K in investments (working for you to make more money) by the time your 30.

You guys think Orrin is one of the most righteous people you've ever met when in reality he's not much different from the company you are leaving. That's reality. He knows if he ever wants to reach the next level in wealth, he has to break away from Amway (like Rich and Jay broke away from Nutrilite). What's kind of funny is they also broke away from Nutrilite with a group of about 10-15 other people. You guys are repeating history and the only winners today are the founders.

Btw, if your handle is anything other than your real name (like, then you are also an anonymous blogger. Dope.

AEM said...

The answer to your questions is, they were trying to correct it. Bo may have given up, but at that time they hadn't yet.
Asking for a alternative plan is not a dodge, it's a serious question. If the only plan you can come up with is saving money and investing then you need to stop blogging and start listening. You never did mention what qualifies you on the subject anyway. Put it to you this way: some have opinions, some have results, you have opinions, Team has results.

Anonymous said...

You really think budgeting, saving money, and investing is worth less than what you "learn" from TEAM?

What kind of qualifications does someone need to tell you TEAM produces tools that they sell only to members of TEAM (which is exactly the same thing TEAM accuses Amway of doing). Both are product pyramids that exist (for now) only at the mercy of the FTC.

I have never claimed to be a financial wiz or guru, but I have mentioned two others who are. The people I have referred you to for budgeting, saving, and investing advice are millionaires many, many times over. They both host syndicated radio talk shows. They've written multiple books on their areas of expertise in financial matters. Notice Orrin only writes about leadership, not finances. What more of a qualification do you need?

Everyone pay attention to what AEM is doing. He's attacking the messenger (me). He's not debunking my message, because it is true. So, the only thing he feels like he can do is attack me and question my credibility. The only thing I have done that was significant in the realm of Quixtar was having months of retailing over 1000PV (with my highest retailing month being 3000PV). said...

No one is making fun of any anon blogger for not using their real name or social security number in their handle.. thats why they call it a handle. We are looking for Quixsands evil henchmen to tell us that they work for the company (even if they are anon) instead of acting like they don't...
And if they aren't IBO's or Quixsand employees, then we want them to have a handle so we can make fun of the fact that they spend hours upon hours blogging about this subject when it has no bearing on their life at all...There has to be a more rewarding hobby....Yo Ma' .. Meatloaf!!

Anonymous said...

great job captain 3000pv. So your mom has 3000pv worth of overpriced crap in her basement (aka the place where you sleep.) I have a 1st place ribbon from a kickball tournament I played in back in 3rd grade. What is your point? Why are you here? Do you really think anyone reads the comments? The content on this blog is what people read and you cannot make that go away....

Anonymous said...

You guys are a riot. The reason I'm here is to show you guys how ridiculous your fight with Quixand is and to demonstrate that your beloved leaders are hypocrites.

Apparently you are reading the comments, so if I can help even one person get unbrainwashed, then that's a good thing.

It seems like I'm winning these arguements because all you guys do is try to belittle/attack me. Do you know what a bigot is? It is any conservative winning an arguement with a liberal. That's exactly what you guys are doing with me.

I bring up how the TEAM tool biz is a product pyramid just like Amway in that the "product" isn't retailed outside of the group. I bring up how another former diamond did this same thing 5-6 years before and your beloved leaders would have no part of it and wouldn't take a stand then. Your guys only "take a stand" (leave) when they are threatened with termination. I mention people who give much more relevant/real world advice (Dave Ramsey and Jim Cramer). The responses I get are lame attempts to paint me as some guy living in his mom's basement or paranoid accusations of being a hired hand for Amway. Nobody has refuted my ideas.

This blog is called Founding Fathers: Standing For Something. The original founding fathers of the USA stood for ideas and equality. The people who have responded to me have only engaged in name calling. Where are your ideas? Do you have any ideas apart from what your upline tells you to think? Can any of you refute that TEAM is as much of a pyramid (probably even more so) as Amway?

Anonymous said...

We would rather discuss points of view with people involved in the battle, not some random guy who wants to treat all our blogs like a debate club..

I guess we are seeing your motivation! To show that a random team in a random business is silly for fighting with the company, and two random guys who lead that random group of people are hypocrites... wow.. what a great accomplishment and goal for life...

Don't weird angry blogger people have anything better to do with they hours of their life? I mean if you were a current Team or other IBO.. I could see why you'd care, or even if you worked for quixsand... then I guess it might affect you... but if that doesn't apply to you..then why are you here.

If we just ignore the diarrhea of criticism that flows from your brain .. will you just disappear to type on another blog subject that doesn't concern you? We can only hope.

We're not here to debate with every random person in the internet world... Most people just type their point and let it go... but weird lonely bloggers just keep coming back bc they can't stand if someone doesn't respond to their ideas... it drives em crazy.. bc the real reason they are here is so someone will debate with them...

Get out of the basement.. go out in the sunshine.. build a model plane.. write a poem.. just stop random blogging!

Anonymous said...

"This blog is called Founding Fathers: Standing For Something. The original founding fathers of the USA stood for ideas and equality."

The founding fathers stood for ideas and equality, but they did not take input nor ask for the advise of parties that were not involved. I do not think Sam Adams cared what the king of some random country thought of him "brainwashing" the other colonists.

I am not concerned about your ideas because I do not accept you as a valid source. An idea is only as good as the source so go "save the world" somewhere else.

Anonymous said...

Oh, but I am involved because I'm one of the millions of law-abiding citizens in this country that don't want to be accosted in malls, book stores, or anywhere else that you guys try to recruit people into your pyramid schemes. I am involved because I pay taxes to a government that should be enforcing the FTC laws that TEAM and Amway flagrantly violate. I am involved because I don't want to see friends or family get hurt in these pyramid schemes either. I've met these guys you think are so brave, honest, and selfless, and you couldn't be more wrong about them.

You guys are wrong about something else, too. I'm not angry. I'm amazed at the gullibility and lack of objectivity on the part of the TEAM pyramid participants. However, I'm really not angry. In fact, I'm very amused at how you guys can't answer my simplest question. So I'll ask it again, "Why is Amway a pyramid when they retail 3.4% of their products to non-IBOs, but TEAM isn't a pyramid when they retail none of their tools outside of TEAM members?" Please think for yourselves. You guys are still stuck in a product pyramid, but now it is only one (TEAM) instead of two (Amway and TEAM). I pray you guys are able to find your way clear of all product pyramids and quit harrassing people about your great business opportunity.

Btw, what am I criticizing? I'm just asking a question that no one here can or wants to answer.

Anonymous said...

Anon, are you sure Amway (MLM) and TEAM are the same? I think if you actually were to educate yourself on this case then you would realize that the courts have already determined that TEAM is not an MLM. In fact, because they are not an MLM, they are not subject to internal consumption issues which currently plague Quixtar. Very cute though that you want to come here and try and be witty. I answered your question and now you may try and ague how I avoided it. Maybe you should do some more research then come back and argue some more.

Oh yeah, one last thing. Orrin wasn't terminated until after he quite. How does that work exactly? He was working with Amway on resolving the problems and wasn't on the board when your precious Bo was. I don't know his story and still that story is coming from his perspective. Take it for what it is, right/wrong/both. Again you are spouting tag lines and half truths in the process of acting like you are just here trying to get answers and save the world from big bad MLMs. Again cute!

AEM said...

Anonymous (the one most everyone is sick of)
The more you go on and on the more ignorant and out of touch you seem to me. You need to get yourself educated on the subject. Go read Chuck's blog, read what Randy had to say, what Ron Simmons has to say, read the complaint, actually learn about what you're trying to talk about. At the very least more people would take you seriously if you actually understood what was going on. Lets look at what you bloged " I am involved because I'm one of the millions of law-abiding citizens in this country that don't want to be accosted in malls, book stores, or anywhere else that you guys try to recruit people into your pyramid schemes." I'm not sure what business you're talking about, I've never tried to recruit, never been told that's the way to build a strong business, in fact been told that what you describe is the wrong way to do it. "I am involved because I pay taxes to a government that should be enforcing the FTC laws that TEAM and Amway flagrantly violate". What laws did Team violate, I don't recall hering them violating any. Also the lawsuit filed in CA by Team is asking for such government enforcement. "I am involved because I don't want to see friends or family get hurt in these pyramid schemes either". I'm with you 100% there, I don't want my friends or family to be hurt in pyramid schemes. Niether does Team, again why they filed a lawsuit. I've met these guys you think are so brave, honest, and selfless, and you couldn't be more wrong about them". I don't think you have met them. If you look at what you're saying here, it's one of two things, either you're completely ignorant on the subject or you agree with Team.

Anonymous said...

I do agree with TEAM that Amway is crap (at best) and deserves more government attention.

Unfortunately, I also see TEAM violating the same pyramiding laws they claim Amway violates. I also see TEAM as simple parts of an illegal operation. You guys pushed the plan and pushed the volume without retailing. You guys are just as guilty and complicit in the lawbreaking as the corporation. You could have gone to any other product provider at any time, but you didn't. Now, when Orrin was threatened (again) with termination, you guys go ahead and start lawsuits claiming that the illegal activity you guys participated in (product pyramiding) was forced upon you by Amway? Give me a break. Take some personal responsibility for a change.

Keep in mind guys, you don't need to be registered as an MLM to be guilty by pyramiding/ponzi scheme laws.

Anonymous said...

While TEAM is not an MLM, it does appear to be a chain-marketing system. Those of you with more knowledge and experience with TEAM can look it up (google) and see how closely it resembles TEAM.

How is it determined who makes money from the TEAM tools/support system?

Does anyone outside of TEAM buy the tools?

Anonymous said...

Maybe you should do a little research and then run your mouth some more Anon.

Orrin did not threaten anyone, but was prepared for an event which maybe he foresaw coming given Quixtar history. Maybe he saw Bo's experience and was prepared for the underhanded attack brought about by Quixtar. Given your lack of understanding on the timeline of events you really need to educate yourself before moving on with this conversation. Information is always key, and you obviously lack the necessary information, at this time, to make a feasible discussion possible.

Anonymous said...

If I'm lacking information, then just answer my questions and give me the necessary info.

The only thing I think that is lacking here is some objective thought on the part of TEAM participants...and answers.

AEM said...

I believe all your questions have been answered through out the posts. What unanswered questions are you talking about? I'd like to find answers for them. Till then I'll ask you if you have read the complaint filed in CA? Have you read the blogs put out by Chuck Goetschel, Ron Simmons, Bill Newton and Randy Haugen? Have you read the letter from Orrin to Doug Devos from 2005? Have you read everything Alticor has to say? Have you read the legal decisions on the various TRO that have been filed? Are you familier with the Omnitrition case? How aware are you of what is happening in the U and India? Where is your information coming from? Since Aug 10th I've read as much as I can from everyone about whats going on. I have catalogued 100's of pages of information on this, read almost all of it. I really put forth a effort to understand before commenting on a subject. All the thoughts and opinions I have formed (on this matter) have been based on the information I've compiled and read. If I disagree'd with Team I'd say so no matter what my upline or Orrin says. I await your questions and your answers to mine.

Anonymous said...


I think this is kind of the point I am trying to make with you. You come here attacking those that you say you just want answers from. Then act all innocent "oh I just want answers", but the answers we give are not sufficient or never actually make it past that giant smoke screen of seething animosity you have for us. How many times have people told you your time line of events are wrong, yet you still use the same (wrong) time line over and over again. You are too lazy to go read the information on your own and are only here to attack people on pieces of information that make sense except to someone who is ignorant. The ignorant person then attacks based on his ignorance and forces people to continually explain when the answers already exist. You are just too lazy to look it up yourself, or maybe too scared. Information might actually take away your platform, which would literally give you nothing to argue about. What ever would you do then. That is why I ask that you go read up on the topic, then come back and make challenges using correct information. You are arguing a fallacious argument in which you are begging the question.

Anonymous said...

Please don't say we are lacking objective thought when your argument has been purely subjective. Objectivity deals with facts and so far that is precisely what you have been ignoring. That is the problem I have with your argument is that you request objectivity from those supporting TEAM yet do not hold the same standard for yourself. Again, go do your homework then come back and have an objective, reasoned argument with us. It will be more productive and more fun that way.

Anonymous said...

To say I don't know what I'm talking about is laughable. Some people (like myself and others) got involved in Amway/Quixtar, and eventually got out for whatever reasons. Some of us continue to follow the goings on of Amway and the different lines of sponsorship as a hobby. When new info comes out, it gets noticed and read. The actions taken overseas with regard to Amway were huge because the majority of Amways business is overseas and it was setting a precedent for more regulatory action against the corporation (that could trickle to the US). The things going on with TEAM were big news, because your group and the Winters group were the fastest growing groups in North America.

The reason I can claim to be objective is because my view is based on my own experiences, the experiences of others (both positive and negative), time spent reading the details of other legal actions against Amway and/or other distributors, and the fact I have nothing to gain or lose either way this legal stuff turns out.

I think you guys are being too subjective because all your information seems to come through a filter that interprets it to be the way you want it to be because you feel you have something at stake. I also feel you guys are too subjective because you guys really don't seem to know much of the history of legal action against Amway and attempts to make reforms in the Amway business. While you guys think I haven't read the same stuff you have, because my view seems so different form yours. In fact I've read that stuff and more for the last few years. I think I'm seeing a bigger picture than you are because I'm putting it into a larger context. I wish you guys would take the time to read some of the documents I've read. They are literally all over the Internet if you just take the time to look. However, I doubt you will.

Seeking out additional information is typically characterized as being "negative" by the motivation organization leaders. It seems like the information TEAM supporters are getting only comes from TEAM or has the TEAM "spin." This reminds me of how Fox News is seen as very conservative, when in reality it isn't but it seems like it because all the other news sources have such a liberal bias. If you read the same stuff I have, you'd know that TEAM and many other Amway system support orgainzations are just chain-marketing systems (not MLMs), that have become product pyramids. You guys think pyramids can only happen in MLMs and that's incorrect. The question I asked that never was answered is "how much of TEAMS system is "retailed" to non-TEAM members?" Another question I have is "how is it determined who gets part of the profits from the sale of those products?"

benjamin_rush said...

a lot of this has been covered on this blog.

BTW, extremely long comments have a name.... they are called blogs. With all of your experience and success, you should start your own.

I find it curious that someone would spend several years digging through all of this info as a hobby, but I guess Ricky Lake has been off the air for awhile.

Anonymous said...

If you are so learned in the ways of this current deliberation then why do you continue to distort simple facts that have been stated over and over, yet you still ignore. I'm glad you have done your research, and I never stated that pyramids can only happen in MLMs. Try to not put words in my mouth. I simply stated that Quixtar and TEAM are not related in the MLM department. I seem to recall that I also referred to the fact that TEAM probably had the forethought to identify what would be required of them to be legal and have made the necessary accomodations. If you disagree then lodge a complaint throught the proper channels. I have done my research concerning TEAM and would hope that those who have joined TEAM would have done the same. They are not the same stereotypical tools group you keep trying to lump them with. Again, research would have disclosed this to you. I'm also curious if all tool creating groups are pyramids, and considering that the major complaint I have seen from people on your side of the argument, these tool groups should have been shut down a long time ago. Just wondering.

To be able to answer your question the clearest way possible I need a definition from you. What is your definition of an illegal pyramid? And just for kicks, how about your definition of a legal pyramid? Making this clear will help me address your concerns directly and in turn I will be able to answer your two question above clearly.

AEM said...

The questions you pose are very simple and easy to answer, the answers (in order of the questions) are 1) Probably next to none, most of the Team tools are not designed to be sold to consumers outside the business. 2) It is based on volume of tools moved in multiple legs.
Did you read my post? I asked you a list of questions, need time to answer them or just hopeing I'd forget I asked them? You push pretty hard for getting your questions answered, so why ignore mine? And you probably shouldn't claim to have done years of research if you're going to come off like you don't know what you're talking about.

Anonymous said...


My apologies. I thought my explaining how this is a hobby and a situation like this is big news would answer your questions. Anyhow here are the more direct answers in order; yes, yes (all 4), yes, most of it, some of them, yes, very much aware (Russia and China also have adopted very strict rules about how operations are carried out in their countries), my info comes from several different sources on the Internet (a few pro-Amway, some pro-TEAM, some anti-MLM/pyramid scheme alert, some legal search engines, and occasional google searches).

While you have followed this particular instance since August 10th, I've followed this general stuff online since around 2002 (when I was very much pro-Quixtar and pro-TEAM). This latest stuff has become a lot more time-consuming because TEAM has been putting out a lot of information supporting their perspective and it takes a while to read. The Amway side has been much quieter on the subject, but then again they don't have 75000 supporters who are involved in the matter.

Anonymous said...

I think someone has caught you on hidden camera.

since this is your "hobby", I don't need to tell you to scroll down to see the video.

Anonymous said...

TEAM was using the front of Q to promote the real business of promoting their Motivational PRODUCTS! Ask them to open their books and prove it wrong!!

I can't say I did not learn anything, but can say I was not high enough the ladder to earn any money off the tapes and books I promoted to my team. Was that Fair?? Why didn't everyone make money off those tools??

Read the excerpt below and you will understand why Q is doing what they are doing! Educate yourselfs!! The Truth doesn't always feel good. But even ROSES have Thorns. Don't get pricked!
Is not the tapes and books PRODUCTS??



MAY 2002 Last month AMWAY - ALTICOR - Quixstar (AAQ) terminated 6 Diamonds over a dispute on the distribution of money for training tools. In a laudatory move 12 other Diamonds resigned (or threatened to) to protest this action! We salute those 12! This was a magnificent (and we are sure painful) way to protest corporate activity. (OPENS NEW WINDOW) The “Team In Focus” group that the 15 were in proposed an MLM comp plan for motivational book, CD and rally training materials. This would have gone all the way down to bottom distributors and not be restricted to the Diamond leadership. The other Diamonds went nuts over losing the money. This must be the new generation of leadership at Amway Alticor. Terminations around Amway were at an all time low. To fully understand the history of the Amway Quixtar training system read on!


Back in 1982 the book, tape and rally Diamond income was secret. New distributors didn’t know about the motivational tool business and it had started to develop into a monster. The program had originally started in 1972. Upline Diamonds got in lawsuits with Downline Diamonds because there were no contracts. Your WatchDog editor had bailed out of Away by 1974 because none of my training material was “good enough.” Why, you might ask? I wasn’t a Diamond! I always say that Amway made me millions of dollars – just not in Amway! Anyhow, by 1982 even Rich DeVos (a hero of mine) told the Diamonds they were on shaky ground in an audio tape “Directly Speaking.” Why? They were not sold to consumers. Over the years the Diamonds countered that it was NOT an MLM system, just millions of dollars of direct sales down the chains of Diamonds.


A HISTORICAL STORY ABOUT TRAINING July 2001 - updated May 2007



In the 60s, Holiday Magic (HM - a skin care company that believed products were not important) set up a training section called Leadership Dynamics (Zig Ziglar was not part of this, only HM product sales). Leadership Dynamics training consisted of torture, brainwashing, and EST psychology. It cost $5000 to go through it. You had to go through it to get to higher pay levels. The barbwire around testicles, naked dog piles, and suffocation were documented in a book "The Pit." It was made into a film and circulated in MLM trials when the FTC and states hit the company.


Glenn Turner was a top distributor with Holiday Magic. He revolted at the torture training and started KOSCOT. Turner did ship products and his leadership company, Dare To Be Great, was based on strong positive training at $5000. Tony Robbins is believed to have attended a course and got his start here. Training was $5000 in 1970, and many today swear it was worth it! However, selling training for 1/3 the price of a new house did not set well with regulators. The state and Federal regulators shut Turner down.


When the FTC hit all of them (MLM companies), one of the major thrusts of the FTC attack was training. Was it of value? All MLM training was hit or suspect. You still see that today when the FTC or states hit a company: Training, if too high priced or paid via MLM, is a great big red flag! Companies that specialize in training can't sell training MLM and stay out of trouble!


AMWAY was hit but had pulled a smart diversification (SO IT SEEMED AT THE TIME), and dodged training issues. In 1972, they started letting top distributors create their downline's entire training systems and informally turned loose what could be charged for training. Amway Corporate at first did motivational meetings at the regional levels, then turned these lucrative large training meetings over to the Diamonds. The FTC did not address the training issues when they sued and settled with Amway (thank you Amway), since they did not exist within the corporate structure!


One of the interesting misconceptions, even from Alticor - Amway - Quixtar members, is that the tools and training system is MLM. It is not. Diamonds generate material and sell it at markups thru the levels of their MLM organization. It is a broker relationship from top down. The upline, starting with top Diamonds, push materials on downlines as almost mandatory. There is not a commission structure, but rather a price mark up as motivational books, tapes, CD's and training sessions go down the rank of Diamonds.


The distributor training material (and rallies) deals are not within Amway-Alticor - Quixtar corporation. They are Crown Diamond distributor deals, down to the lowest Diamond. There is no formal structure dictated by Alticor - Amway for markups on the tapes and other training material as they travel downline. The worst MLM tape ever was a Diamond out of Colorado Springs bashing every MLM company but his. Others, like Hawkins "Prospecting" (1984), was magnificent (as were some of his other tapes).


WatchDog Opinion: The distributor training material (and especially rallies), have gotten too high. Especially the regional training meetings and the big push to get people to them. I am an advocate of MLMer's reading books and listening to tapes. However, I started "The Golden Opportunity" as an MLM with fair pricing for magazines, tapes and tools in the 80's as a kind of personal revolt against the "big wigs" raking in all the money at high prices. Your editor thinks that Amway - Alticor - Quixtar growth in the U.S. has been stunted by too much motovation! Complaints - yes, lots!


AEM said...

Thank you for answering my questions. Interesting how two people can look at the same issue, having been exposed to roughly the same information (on that issue) and see it two totally different ways. I respect your point of view and the amount of time you've taken to look at the information avaiable. Although I think a lot of people have confused the tool profits/rip off situation with the Team V Quixtar situation. A big part of what made the Team different (from other BSM business') is the way system profits were dealt with. Team V Quixtar is not about the way Team ran it's business, it's about the way Quixtar runs theirs. But again thank you for posting what you did.

Anonymous said...


Thanks for the civilized discussion, AEM. How does TEAM's system profits differ from other LOAs BSMs? Is there a contract?

From the view of a person on the outside, it is hard to distinguish between the way Quixtar runs its business and the way TEAM taught people to run theirs. None of my old materials from TEAM mentioned retailing products. My old upline really didn't teach people to retail. Everything was focused on shopping at your own store and teaching others to do the same thing. As an aside, I never saw any profits until I retailed.

One of the problems people have who have been following Quixand/Amway for a long time is we become jaded when we here an IBO say, "Our LOS is different." We've heard that so many times before and it has never been true. From an outsider's view, the different support systems seem to run in pretty much the same way, maybe because they were all based off Dexter Yager's model.

I know TEAM has an issue with the Amway prices, but it seems like ALL current mlm companies have high prices. Comparing Amway prices to Wal Mart prices seems dishonest. Have any TEAM members tried comparing prices between Amway and other MLMs? I'm sure Amway would still be higher, but it wouldn't be such a huge disparity and it would be comparing apples to apples. said...

This is a perfect example of an evil blogger talking out both sides of his mouth!!!

"I can't say I did not learn anything, but can say I was not high enough the ladder to earn any money off the tapes and books I promoted to my team. Was that Fair?? Why didn't everyone make money off those tools??"- Anon

"I bring up how the TEAM tool biz is a product pyramid just like Amway in that the "product" isn't retailed outside of the group" - Anon

So the poor fella was in TEAM and is complaining that he didn't make any money on tools, "thats not fair - why didn't everyone make money".. Its the same crap over and over..

So following your logic, its unfair if everyone DOESN'T make money off tools, therefore it would be "fair" for everyone TO make money off tools, but the moment that happened, YOU WOULD CALL IT A PYRAMID BECAUSE EVERYONE THAT IS BUYING THE TOOLS IS MAKING MONEY!!! What a moronic circular argument!

LISTEN UP HIRED QUIXSAND THUG!! YOU'RE NOT FOOLING ANYONE.. Quit acting like you're some jaded ex-IBO whos mission it is to right the wrongs of MLMs everywhere.

You claim you were in Team but not high enough on the "ladder" to make money, was not told about retailing by your old upline, yet retailed 1000pv-3000pv, then describe yourself as "one of the millions of law-abiding citizens in this country that don't want to be accosted in malls, book stores, or anywhere else that you guys try to recruit people into your pyramid schemes", then in the same post that you claim to have been a 1000pv'er, you spout off about Diamond club reports, quoting the average pv per IBO in orrins team and how that compares to other Diamonds, discussing how Haugens team has been going backwards for years, the "7" other organizations outside of the TEAM, then discussing the LOAs of BSMs.. Oh... I know, you will tell us you learned all of this info by researching on the internet night after night for years...

YOU ARE A HIRED QUIXSAND HACK... STOP DIGGING FOR INFO AND TRYING TO CREATE DOUBT... get out of your monkey cage and stop flinging poo!!!

Anonymous said...

I think you are quoting at least two different anonymous posters. Maybe more?

I don't think Quixand is using bloggers to post anywhere other than company blogs.

It looks like is starting to become a weird angry blogger, maybe a little paranoid, too. Oh well, at least AEM and one of the anonymous guys can have a decent discussion and compare thoughts.

Anonymous said...

nice try. in your previous anonymous post you found one guy in aem who is even giving you the time of day and all of the sudden you are trying to get on our side of the table. no one is buying it.

"Thanks for the civilized discussion, AEM. How does TEAM's system profits differ from other LOAs BSMs? Is there a contract?"

the only people who know what LOA stands for are people within quixtar and people who have changed training systems.

so do you work for Q/A or have you been hired by them?

Anonymous said...

Look Guys! What has happened has happened! You can not turn back time. What one blog was saying, I believe is that If Amway had found a way early on to combine the tool system into the company so there was a uniform way of training, there would not be the problem there is today. There is no 1 wrong here. What is done is done!! All are guilty! Move on ! Time is slipping By!
You have to ask yourself, are you intelligent enough to make decisions on your own and find a true "B" Business with Content and Commerce and do what ever it takes to make that "B" business work!
Your up line Diamonds are on a totally different Playing field than any of you! They do no want to lose their down lines. If they do they have to start over just like YOU! They can find a small company that will pay them to transfer their TEAM over to the new company and all the small guys will never see one red cent down line!!
That's big business in most network marketing. It is the truth!
While all of you are sitting around whining and crying who at fault, Business goes on as usual!
There are Great Companies out there. Much better pay structures and systems that function for the average Joe. You just need to do your own research and be intelligent enough to believe in your heart that you will make a difference! Your Adults,You can think on your own Again! Hey you made the first choice to join Team without a gun to your head. You can do it again!!
Would an evil Blogger Tell you this. Doubt is not what you need to be seeing, You need to be seeing YOU can think own your Own! You don't have to have pappy orwin to make your decisions!
If your in a box with the lid close, can you see what is going on, on the outside??
Remember Your Box is unlocked!!! Come out and see the World! It's pretty Wonderful

Anonymous said...

NBC NEWS 10 Work at Home

Pretty Interesting news story!!
I heard that TEAM had this one on their list that they were looking at! Sounds Decent.
Looks Like CONTENT AND COMMERCE TO ME!! We are the Community!
Heard that a former Diamond Started it back in 1992. Anybody ever heard of it?

This was an article my platinum sent me!
Media Blitz

AEM said...

Anonyomous (the one i've been posting with),
Before the daimond group I was a part of aligned with Team we were aligned with INET. The differences I saw between Team and INET were huge. The functions cost less, the materials cost less, and my upline told me he was making way more off tools. Speaking of tools, yes there are written contracts (complete with non-compete clauses). There is no specific pin level in quixtar one needs in order to see profit from tool flow. The quality of the materials were also different, the worst teaching/story cd I heard from team was far more interesting and informative than the best ones I heard from INET. When Orrin broke away from INET he did so because he didn't like the way the tool system was run, he wanted everybody on his team to have the same exact pay plan, from product flow to system. To form team they looked at what worked in the business and what didn't and then designed Team to have as much of what worked as possible and as little of what didn't as possible. As far as retailing Quixtar products, the major point of recoginition required a 150 PV center, the recomended way to build it was through about 100PV through personal use 50PV through retailing.
The reason for comparing Quixtar to Wal-mart is because (although different business models) they are both in the consumable's market. And who's number 1? Wal-mart. So if you're going to be the best at what you do, you look at what the best in your industry does and aim for that. The objection to this (the best I understand it) is because Quixtar is a MLM it needs higher margins to pay bonuses, where wal-mart is not paying bonuses so they can have lower prices. It sounds good but I think the Walton family has close to $100B to their name, so even with low prices they still had plenty of profits (to deposit into their bank or pay bonuses).

Anonymous said...

well said aem.

Anonymous said...

Just because no MLM has done it before doesn't mean it can't be done, Ask SAM Walton how many people thought his idea would work. Not to mention with an Internet Based MLM there are not brick and mortar stores all over the US to build, staff, and maintain. There's some millions and even billions saved that can go to bonuses as well. Why is a Wal-Mart pricing strategy so difficult to comprehend. I struggle to understand why people cannot see this as a possibility and even a very probable one.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah, and what if all the profits went into a profit sharing pool that was paid out based on performance similar to the TEAM tools infrastructure. Where the creator or top person never took a piece off the top before distributing it back to the others. What if everyone, even the creators had the same deal no matter where they were positioned. How cool would that be.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree. That was well said AEM. Kudos. On the surface, that sounds really good. Let me meditate upon your truth for a while. :)

Some preliminary thoughts I have are regarding the difference between the Wal-ly World and an mlm approach may come down to individual comfort levels. Many more people are comfortable with the buying action (especially in brick-n-mortar stores) than the selling action. Knowing they will need to sell products may hinder the willingness of prospects to get involved. Also, Wal Mart has streamlined distribution greatly (where they seem to get the most profit) and forced manufacturers to take smaller profit margins because of their efficient distribution system. MLM doesn't seem really efficient because of all the middlemen getting their cut.

A paranoid anonymous person wrote,
"the only people who know what LOA stands for are people within quixtar and people who have changed training systems.

so do you work for Q/A or have you been hired by them?"

No, people who have a hobby of reading about Amway/Quixtar also know what LOA stands for. Heck, IBOfightback's site, Larsen's site, and Qblogs site all have a bunch of analysis and discussion regarding LOS and LOA issues.

Anonymous said...

You've never told anyone about a great deal, or promoted something like a good movie or book. If the option is good enough the selling part becomes a promotion and is very easy to do, so easy in fact you don't realize you are doing it most of the time. Then imagine that you got paid for doing it. Amazing.

As far as distribution, what if there is a manufacturer out there that actually creates many of the common items you see in most stores. The middleman goes away almost completely. We connect with the manufacturer through the internet and have the items we want delivered right to our door. How is that not a great distribution model?! If you have the "community" (buying power) then others will do what they have done for WalMart. It may not happen over night, but patience is a virtue.

I also think your inferring that people would rather buy from a brick and mortar is perhaps correct but that number is shrinking. I for one enjoy the online shopping experience so much more. Some things have a brick and mortar advantage, like clothing, but most everything I can buy online I do buy online (even pizza) because I don't have to fight with a person over what I am trying to find, where to find it, checkout lines, poor service, tabloids that can make me blush when I am with my kids, parking, traffic, and the list could go on and on and on. The future is obvious, more and more people will be buying online and if they can get a great deal, then perhaps save some money (even make money), and have convenience along with it. How cool is that. Throw in 100% satisfaction guarantee, and a 1-800 number with a real person to talk to for support and BAM, you have something wonderful.

Everything begins with vision, and the vision that I believe TEAM has is going to do something never done before. Sam Walton, Ray Kroc, TEAM. I think I'm a little excited.

Again, it won't happen over night, but I am a patient man if I know that the results can be incredible. I truly think it will be worth it to get involved, take a chance, and just maybe be part of something incredible. Isn't that worth the chance. TEAM leadership has earned my trust I have chosen to follow them. It may not be for everyone, but it is for me and my family. Going to a Million and beyond.

Anonymous said...

No, people who have a hobby of reading about Amway/Quixtar also know what LOA stands for. Heck, IBOfightback's site, Larsen's site, and Qblogs site all have a bunch of analysis and discussion regarding LOS and LOA issues.

...people who have a hobby of reading about Amway/Quixtar...

let me stop you right there. I never thought I would see these words put together and have someone be serious. I guess I was wrong.

by the way, I have a hobby called golf.... doesn't mean I know what I am doing or can give any credible advice whatsoever.

Anonymous said...

an anonymous poster said -
"by the way, I have a hobby called golf.... doesn't mean I know what I am doing or can give any credible advice whatsoever"

Wow, you either don't invest much effort or interest in your hobbies or you are really bad and don't learn from your mistakes...maybe both.

Anonymous said...

And the poo slinging begins.

Anonymous said...

Media Blitz
I saw this on someones blog earlier. Is this what TEAM is looking at? Sounds kinda neat. They have wal-mart and lot more partner stores than q has. Who are they. I never heard of them before. are they a mlm?
who was the diamond?

AEM said...

Thank you for considering what I had to say.

Anonymous said...

AEM, you are welcome. Your words seemed to have a lot of thought behind them and made sense.

Poo slinging happens when someone takes cheap shots. AEM posts thought provoking material, so he doesn't draw poo. If someone else slings poo related to credibility and hobbies, then they should expect poo slung back at them.

The market america thing looks interesting, but the prices are still higher than Wal Mart (but way better than Amway). Good or bad, that is going to be the gold standard for anyone wishing to compete in marketing on a LARGE scale.

I heard a rumor that the California case has gone to arbitration. Has anyone else heard that? Has it been verified?

Anonymous said...

Someone was telling me that market america thing is different from mlm. They were building kinda like we do in team. 2 legs. I went to their site, about ma. it tells how it works. But they pay every week, It looks like what we were doing. May have been where orrin and them got the idea.
Wal-mart is a partner store. The prices are the same. How do they get paid on those stores? Kinda neat!
I don't understand it totally. My upline says he heard TEAM office had contacted market america's corporate team. I wish I knew what was going on. Has anyone heard anything recently??

AEM said...

Thank you for your kind words, it's nice to be able to disagree so much without creating animosity. I respect your veiw point on the issue aswell. You seem like you've done your homework and thought through the issue's. Last night I read a letter, from a ex IBO, to Amway and Doug Devos about how he felt ripped off by the yager system, sounded very hurt. I don't doubt people have been scamed and lied to in the name of profits by people that own tool systems, and that sucks. I just don't want people to assume Team is like so many others system's out there. In fact let me toss out a question to anyone who wants to answer it. Don Wilson and Randy Haugen had their own system, Chuck Goetschel had his, I think that's all, but I may be wrong, feel free to correct me. So if they were all about scamming people with tools, why would they walk away from their systems to align with Team when Team shares all systems profits? I think that means they took a cut in system profits.

Renshi_D said...

Hey, I've finally adopted a handle.

I heard one the Qblog forum that there is an email going around from Amway talking about meetings and functions where IBOs invite other IBOs to attend and then the meetings and functions then encourage them to leave the Quixtar business. TEAM wouldn't be doing anything that breaks the business rules so flagrantly like that, would they?

Here's the content of that letter from the corp -
[Dear IBO:

Many IBOs choose to attend meetings and functions that help train and motivate them to become more successful as QUIXTAR® IBOs. While we at Quixtar certainly support this activity, we have recently learned that some IBOs are inviting, and even pressuring, other IBOs to buy tickets to and to attend certain functions whose purpose is NOT to build the QUIXTAR business. Some of these are local Open meetings at which IBOs openly encourage other IBOs to leave Quixtar. Others are major functions.

Please understand that all solicitation by IBOs of IBOs who are not personally sponsored to attend meetings and functions where the QUIXTAR business is not promoted and where a competing business is promoted are clear violations of Rule 4.14, which prohibits IBOs from soliciting other IBOs who are not personally sponsored for other selling activities. Also, such solicitation by IBOs of any other IBOs represents a clear violation of Rule 6.5, which prohibits IBOs from participating in/promoting a competing business.

If IBOs, or former IBOs upline or crossline from you, are pressuring you or IBOs downline from you to buy tickets to meetings and functions where the organizers are not promoting the QUIXTAR opportunity, please let us know immediately, at

We at Quixtar stand with you and can enforce the rules against IBOs who try to violate them – but we need your help. You and other IBOs in the field are in the best position to detect and report this type of Rules violation. ]

Any ideas who would be doing something like this?

Anonymous said...

You may probably be very interested to know how one can make real money on investments.
There is no initial capital needed.
You may begin to get income with a sum that usually is spent
on daily food, that's 20-100 dollars.
I have been participating in one project for several years,
and I'm ready to let you know my secrets at my blog.

Please visit my pages and send me private message to get the info.

P.S. I make 1000-2000 per day now. [url=]Online Investment Blog[/url]